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You can ask the mechanic a simple question, what did he set the timing at?
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12mm pump heads, ARP stud kits and GTD nozzles available! http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1646 NA intake manifolds and 240 turbo pans for sale. Need d24 or d24t parts? PM me! Shipments done on fridays! 1982 242 D24+T/M46- Super pumped! Build thread: http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1545 1984 764 D24T/ZF build thread: http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1734 Diesel parts cars: 82 244,83 244, 84 244, 84 245, 85 745 |
#2
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Hey guys, sorry it took me so long to respond, my email alerts weren't coming through.
The short answer is yes, the mechanic timed it with the dial gauge. The long answer is muddied. My pinzgauer was originally an automatic transmission, and has been converted to manual. With that done, he was wondering if there was an issue with timing marks, because of the bellhousing. (maybe this makes sense to you?) Also, once it did start, it ran pretty darn good, which makes me think it just needs some adjusting of fuel flow rather than timing. This isn't my area of expertise which is why I'm here though. The guy from UK who rebuilds pinzgauers is confident that it's just an adjustment issue not a timing issue. Please give me any and all advice! Thank you in advance! |
#3
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A: What did he time it to? (Usually expressed as 0.xx mm, ex. 0.95 mm)
It may have been asked before, I did not see the answer. B: What method did he use? C: Were any "adjustments" made to the injection pump that may have thrown it out of adjustment? D: Is it still hard to start or was that difficulty just the first time?
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1985 744 gle d24t 1985 745 gle d24t |
#4
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So I don't know that.. Is it not just timed to TDC?
Not sure on method, I will ask. It is a brand new rebuilt pump from the UK.... So? It didn't start hard at all before the rebuild But it has basically all new components from the head gasket up so that's why we're unsure of the issue. Quote:
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#5
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Quote:
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First, echoing one of the earlier questions, can you describe again what the symptoms are? You say hard to start -- is that every time you try to start it, it takes a long period of cranking, or just the first time after it was reassembled, or just the first start of the day, or...? Both cold and when restarting a warm engine, or only when cold, or only when warm? Able to take a video showing a starting attempt, both when cold and fully warm, so we can see/hear? And you're saying it runs pretty well once it finally does start, but, you also said earlier that it smoked badly after it started. Tell us a little more about what the engine's performance is like when it does start running. - Smoke? - If so, When? At idle, or just under heavy load? Smoke when cold but then stops smoking when it warms up, or is it smoking all the time regardless of temp, or only for a few seconds after start then none at all? What color smoke if present, white or blue or gray or black? - Power? Does it feel like it did before? Better? Worse? Different in some way? - Other observations? Temperatures? Sound? Smoothness? A little more background on the work that was done: - Injection pump replacement and engine cylinder head work: sounds like the engine was running fine before this was done, what was the reason for the repairs? Just proactive maintenance/restoration? Or was there a problem being fixed and if so, what? - Trans conversion auto to manual: what parts were used? Was it a complete set of Pinzgauer specific transmission/drivetrain/flywheel/clutch parts? Was it a correct D24T flywheel with the TDC mark for timing? Or did the mechanic have to "get creative" in some way that could have meant there's no TDC mark for the crankshaft to use, or he had to make one of his own that might not be accurate? Or parts used from a different vehicle (like a Volvo) for the swap that might be mismatched in some way and throw a timing attempt off the track? - What's the complete list of engine parts that were replaced? Photo of a work order? - How were parts sourced? Any chance that some of the specific Pinzgauer parts for its 24-volt electrical system could have been accidentally subbed with Volvo/LT parts for a 12-volt system? If your new injection pump has 12v solenoids in it, then [they will fail]. Likewise if the glow plugs were replaced with parts designed for a 12v system, [they will quickly overheat and fail]. As a general rule, difficulty starting is usually one of the following things: - Glow plug issues (some not working, or a circuit problem, or wrong style/poor quality glow plugs) - Injection and/or cam timing wrong - Loss of fuel system prime (air getting into fuel pump and/or fuel leaking out and/or severe fuel supply restriction) - Too slow starter cranking speed (battery/starter/connection issues) - Base engine compression problem (ring/valve leakage or too thick headgasket) Each of these potential causes presents symptoms in a slightly different way, though. They all make the engine hard to start but each has its own signature tell-tales from what is observed and when (hot/cold etc). The added details on what you are seeing the engine do will help us narrow it down. *Edit, I was not thinking clearly when I originally wrote above that 12v components in a 24v vehicle would not get hot enough or not work correctly. The opposite case is true: 12v parts (both glow plugs and solenoids) supplied with 24v will overheat and burn out, and/or the glow plugs would probably pop the glow circuit fuse from excessive current draw. 24v lugs in a 12v vehicle is the scenario where they would not generate enough heat to aid starting and a 24v solenoid supplied with only 12v would probably work only partially or not at all. I'm correcting this for posterity. But, if it smokes when running and/or has trouble starting when warm as well as cold, the glow plug system is probably unrelated to the issue anyway.
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86 745 D24T/ZF 345k lifted 2.5" 83 764 D24T/M46 155k Last edited by v8volvo; 12-02-2020 at 06:29 PM. Reason: voltage mismatch correction |
#6
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Also, to the questions from Anders and ngoma asked above, exact answers from the mechanic will help:
What is the numeric timing setting the mechanic used? And is he certain he didn't time it 180 degrees off? Even if the reading on the dial is correct, meaning the IP is timed correctly to the crankshaft, you still can be 180 out on the camshaft. Does he understand how that works? We're not trying to question his competence. However, it's very common with these engines for a skilled and experienced mechanic to do a lot of excellent high quality work on mechanical reconditioning, but then get tripped up on the final steps with the timing process. What makes it tricky is that it is very specific, and demands patience and a real understanding not just of the technical procedures involved, but of what they are fundamentally intended to accomplish. Those who don't try to reach that understanding are always tempted to take shortcuts on the steps, not realizing why they are necessary. This is why the first questions we all asked were about the timing process used.
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86 745 D24T/ZF 345k lifted 2.5" 83 764 D24T/M46 155k |
#7
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OK so got some more info. He timed the motor to the spec in the pinzgauer service manual, which is (he didn't have it front of him) +085 or 088. Does that make sense?
If the timing was 180 degrees off would the engine even run at all? Quote:
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#8
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So this is the type of intelligence that made me come here!
The transmission swap happened before I purchased the vehicle. I don't know what that means for timing marks. We started on things that were leaking and ended up just replacing things for preventative maintenance. It has a new "stage 2" Turbo from SGB all terrain in UK. He also supplied the rebuilt injection pump and new injectors. It did come with 12v solenoids but we swapped them to the old 24v. The exhaust manifold was machined as it had a leak where it bolted on. Then new Radiator, water pump, belts, hoses, head gasket. The mechanic sourced new glow plugs and I bet that's an issue that they are 12v and not 24v. When we cranked it to try to get it started, it smoked a lot, thick grey black smoke. Then when driving, not terrible but constant black chugging smoke. I only drove it once, and didn't pay that much attention to it unfortunately. 😑 I will find out what he timed it for and get back on here. Thank you for all the help!! Quote:
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#9
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The intelligence you have received here (mostly from a generous set of questions and explanations from member v8volvo) will not help you much until you answer all the questions. So far you have not or could not answer so are not taking advantage of the "intelligence" you value that has been presented to you here.
WE want you to succeed in restoring the performance and reliability to your rare vehicle. YOU need to do your part. Will you please review closely v8volvo's recent posts and answer ALL the questions one by one? If you don't know, just state don't know. But try to answer ALL the questions. Before people get fatigued from repeatedly asking.
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1985 744 gle d24t 1985 745 gle d24t |
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