D24T.com  

Go Back   D24T.com > Technical Discussion Area > Diesel Engine and Drivetrain

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 05-15-2022, 03:31 PM
Echo1975 Echo1975 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Finland
Vehicle: Volvo 240
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8volvo View Post
I don't think that method is necessarily wrong. I think your pump timing setting process should give a successful reading, assuming you are using the method of loosening the four fasteners holding the pump to its brackets and rotating the pump in order to get the desired reading on the dial indicator. Correct?

When saying this is not the way to do it, ngoma meant that this is not the "best/easiest" way -- it's easier/better to do using the 9995199 counterhold tool and rotating the cam sprocket rather than moving the pump. However, correct timing can be achieved using your method as long as you understand how to do it. It's just more labor intensive and can sometimes leave the pump in a resting position that obstructs access to #5 and #6 injectors and glow plugs (although on the NA engines without as tall of an IP, this too is less of a factor).

So, bottom line, your methodology of adjusting timing should not prevent you from getting a successful setting, as long as you are able to tolerate the extra effort versus our preferred method.

But there are still things that could be causing a problem. You asked,



Not understanding this exactly. Why are you rotating counterclockwise (backwards from engine rotation)? I think it is true that if you go CCW, the reading would be falling as you pass through the zero mark and then not begin to rise again for several degrees. But you do the timing process in the CLOCKWISE direction, and in that direction the above is not true.

The way the timing *checking* process works is that you:
- disengage the cold start device so that it is resting in the hot position (sounds like you did this)
- install the dial indicator and its holder, then begin turning over the engine and adjusting the holder so that you achieve the correct ~2mm (at least 1mm) preload on the dial indicator AND have it zeroed successfully. it should return to the same zero point consistently each time the reading falls AND that zero point needs to be with preload so that you know it's zeroing on the low position of the pump plunger, NOT zeroing on the tool's own internal stop. Recognize that if you don't achieve these things then the dial indicator's readings are meaningless and could misinform you.
- then once you are sure you are set up correctly in terms of preload and zero point, continue to turn the engine over until the notch on the IP pulley begins to approach the marks on the pump case and bracket, indicating that your #1 cylinder's piston is on the approach to compression TDC
- when you see the dial indicator fall to zero one last time before #1 TDC, then start to climb again, now look into the bellhousing at the flywheel and slowly bring it up to the 0 mark. When it centers the 0 mark with the pointer in the bellhousing, look at the dial indicator. Whatever it says there is your correct timing reading.

NOTE that in this process, the dial indicator will begin to rise BEFORE the zero mark on the flywheel is reached. In fact the 0 mark on the flywheel is where you need to stop to take your reading, and by that point, the timing on the indicator should already be around 0.90-0.95mm.

If readings do not appear at the expected crank angles on the dial indicator, then to me, that means that your dial indicator may not have had enough preload set on it. It could also mean timing is grossly retarded but if it were that bad the engine probably wouldn't run.

Is that question I'm asking making sense? The setup and calibration of the dial indicator is a key step that is easy to overlook so may want to revisit that if you are not sure.

I still think the driveability (bucking and low power) you are mentioning could be improved with known correct timing. To be sure on cam timing you do need the locking tool. It is available on ebay very cheap for the VW application so worth getting one and getting it right. Easy to do with valve cover and rear cam gear removed. It does need to be correct. Eyeball is really not good enough -- again remember that, unlike say a TDI, this engine has no computer controls so it cannot compensate at all if things are not set up right.

The inconsistent RPM behavior does sound like air in the system but it could also be a light load misfire due to incorrect timing. Try timing first, once you are rock solid on being sure that's right, there would be other things to look at.

It will get there!
Yes, I loosened the bolts and rotated the pump. I got the pump timing right on the first couple of tries so I think I will stick to this way of doing it.

I looked at a tutorial where I am pretty sure the guy said counter clockwise on the crank until the number on the dial stops rising and then back and see if it shows the same amount.

Your way of doing it is way different so I will definitely check what the reading is with that.

Today I noticed the car has started to run better and the smoke was just a thin haze when hot now so something is going on and it's being improved over time.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-15-2022, 08:32 PM
ngoma ngoma is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo1975 View Post
I swear the car is slower than it used to be when it worked good but it could be because I had a 1.9 tdi while rebuilding the engine and I got used to that.
Well the 1.9TDI way outperforms the D24 N/A. Agree that this may have colored your expectations.

I have driven a few D24 N/A 240s. Lots and lots of rowing the shifter for relatively meager benefits.
__________________
1985 744 gle d24t
1985 745 gle d24t
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-21-2022, 12:53 PM
Echo1975 Echo1975 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Finland
Vehicle: Volvo 240
Posts: 25
Default

It turns out I accidentally put the wrong fuel in the car.
I looked at my purchases and saw that I had accidentally put biodiesel in the car.
I guess the fuel nozzles looked very similar

This could maybe be the cause for the bad running aswell?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-21-2022, 09:11 PM
RedArrow RedArrow is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NY
Vehicle: 740
Posts: 826
Default

Not really, i think. Even regularly using Biodiesel would be alright except if you accidentally used the cheapo european *heating oil* by mistake. That was usually very low quality and highly acidic. IP seals hated it. Are you in Europe?

What did they call "biodiesel" btw? what percentage was it? b5,b20 or much higher such as b99? If clean and well filtered, they all are fine fuel into these cars. But not the heating oil ..idk if it was heating oil what you used.

Last edited by RedArrow; 05-21-2022 at 09:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-21-2022, 09:40 PM
ngoma ngoma is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,166
Default

*High Quality* BD should run extremely similar to PetroD. Some notice it quiets the engine a tiny amount. Performance differences should be well within 10%. BD exhaust smells A LOT better.

BD *may* have a slightly higher gel point than winter grade PD but I think those low wintertime temperatures have passed in your area by this time of year.

Not likely the cause of your problems, unless the BD was low quality or waterlogged.

Warning: 100% BD can prematurely degrade non-BD compatible fuel system rubber (fuel hoses, older IP seals), causing them to soften and weep.

OTOH, BD inherently has higher lubrication qualities than current ULSD, potentially increasing IP and injector lifespans (assuming IP seals are BD resistant).

Previously you stated you thought eyeballing the camshaft timing was close enough and wouldn't cause performance problems. ("The cam timing could be a little bit wrong but I don't think that could effect the engine too much.") I don't have direct experience with this so will not overtly dispute that but--- Why would the factory make a special tool and additionally specify loading the adjustment 0.2mm to one side if eyeballing was close enough? Why should they complicate the process?

Also: "Adjusted the valves to pretty much exactly to what the book says..."
What is "pretty much exactly to what the book says?" Either followed the method and specs or not? If not, what did you do different?
Did you measure clearance with the head fully torqued to the block or before?
Hot or cold?

Not meaning to run you around but there must be something amiss. We agree that it should be running better, not worse, after a new head, light rework, new headgasket, timing, etc., no?

Let's verify and clarify where you are at now. Apparently the performance and driveability are continuing to incrementally improve? Acceptable smoke? Only remaining issue is low RPM stumble? Please clarify if I misread.
__________________
1985 744 gle d24t
1985 745 gle d24t
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-22-2022, 01:56 PM
Echo1975 Echo1975 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Finland
Vehicle: Volvo 240
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngoma View Post
*High Quality* BD should run extremely similar to PetroD. Some notice it quiets the engine a tiny amount. Performance differences should be well within 10%. BD exhaust smells A LOT better.

BD *may* have a slightly higher gel point than winter grade PD but I think those low wintertime temperatures have passed in your area by this time of year.

Not likely the cause of your problems, unless the BD was low quality or waterlogged.

Warning: 100% BD can prematurely degrade non-BD compatible fuel system rubber (fuel hoses, older IP seals), causing them to soften and weep.

OTOH, BD inherently has higher lubrication qualities than current ULSD, potentially increasing IP and injector lifespans (assuming IP seals are BD resistant).

Previously you stated you thought eyeballing the camshaft timing was close enough and wouldn't cause performance problems. ("The cam timing could be a little bit wrong but I don't think that could effect the engine too much.") I don't have direct experience with this so will not overtly dispute that but--- Why would the factory make a special tool and additionally specify loading the adjustment 0.2mm to one side if eyeballing was close enough? Why should they complicate the process?

Also: "Adjusted the valves to pretty much exactly to what the book says..."
What is "pretty much exactly to what the book says?" Either followed the method and specs or not? If not, what did you do different?
Did you measure clearance with the head fully torqued to the block or before?
Hot or cold?

Not meaning to run you around but there must be something amiss. We agree that it should be running better, not worse, after a new head, light rework, new headgasket, timing, etc., no?

Let's verify and clarify where you are at now. Apparently the performance and driveability are continuing to incrementally improve? Acceptable smoke? Only remaining issue is low RPM stumble? Please clarify if I misread.
The issue has been solved!

The pump timing was off so much still that it caused a lack of power and bad running.

The white smoke, bucking and low power are all completely gone now. It feels great when the car works so good now.

I tried the 0-100kmh acceleration after the tuneup and I got 16s 0-100! My previous best was 18.5 seconds with barely any fuel in the tank and this time I had just fueled it completely full.

I have just checked my valves and all intake are within 0.25-0.15mm, exhaust 0.45-0.35mm cold. All the valves had to be adjusted after the rebuild.

I currently have the pump fine adjustment at 0.90mm and the car works very well. I heard some people are running 1-1.05mm for the adjustment and I wonder if this is safe? Would the cold start device advance it to unsafe levels if risen to such a high level?

I am interested in adjusting it higher because the current results have been very good.

Also thanks to everyone who has bothered to answer this thread
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-23-2022, 11:56 AM
ngoma ngoma is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo1975 View Post
The issue has been solved!

The pump timing was off so much still that it caused a lack of power and bad running.
10 days ago you had set it to .92. That was still causing your recent performance problems? What did you set it to?
__________________
1985 744 gle d24t
1985 745 gle d24t
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-24-2022, 03:58 PM
Echo1975 Echo1975 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Finland
Vehicle: Volvo 240
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngoma View Post
10 days ago you had set it to .92. That was still causing your recent performance problems? What did you set it to?
Someone commented the right way to do it. I guess I must have done something wrong on the first time but it runs better than ever before right now. The diesel knocking sound came back when I adjusted it properly. I think my real number turned out to be 0.50 and it sounded like a gasoline engine like that.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.