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  #1  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:19 AM
smashed54 smashed54 is offline
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Default seized block

Good day folks. I have an 84 na d24 m46 that I bought for a donor into a 79 245.Only 235,000 km on the clock. Tried to turn the crank with 27 mm, breaker bar and snipe and no results in either direction. I am ready now to get the car into my shop and test the motor, compression/leak down etc. and replace all consumables on the engine and trans. Would be great to have it running. Bought the car running two yrs. ago and started it every 3-4 months with no problems. It started first crank and had lots of injector noise, clacking. Little or no smoke and I only ran it for 15 minutes idling. Went to start it two months ago and nothing, assumed the starter. Jacked the car and found the starter to be in very poor condition with a busted/corroded rear aluminum case and rotten copper from solenoid to brushes. PRESTO! Thought I had it. But you all know what Thought did. lol I changed out the starter to a known good one and then found the block locked. Anti freeze hydro lock, busted valves, broken cam??? I'll try to elevate these thoughts. Any other things I could check? I can't turn the engine so hard to check timing? . I'll examine the timing belts for missing teeth/slipping. I don't know the history of the car but oil and antifreeze look good. If I have to I'll rebuild the bottom end but with only 235,000 on it that should be ok. Thanks for all the great info and posts already here and thank-you for any input on my problem... Paul
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  #2  
Old 05-24-2020, 08:06 AM
v8volvo v8volvo is offline
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Bummer. But hopefully it's not something that will be terminal.

Can the crank turn a little bit in either direction, but then hits a hard stop? Or it is locked totally solid, can't budge it at all?

If it's the first, then you would suspect something having to do with the valvetrain or head, mechanical interference of some kind.

If it's the second, then either the pistons are rusted in the bores or it's hydrolocked.

Hydrolock situation can't just happen out of the blue, there has to be a way for liquid to get in. Is the coolant level still all the way up or did some disappear? Intake and exhaust systems are installed still, right? No way rainwater could get in?

"Broken cam syndrome" is one of the oldest and most ignorant myths about D24 engines that you may have heard. The legend (created by folks who don't understand) is that the camshafts just shatter for no reason, spontaneously. The truth is that they break AFTER the timing slips, either failed timing belt or spun crankshaft gear (often times due to botched installation of a timing belt just a little while earlier, by the very same person who now claims the camshaft just exploded out of the blue!). So I wouldn't go looking for a broken cam -- it simply does not happen, except when it's a result of another failure somewhere else. But you do want to check the condition of the timing belts, as you say. Watch the belt as you try (gently) to turn the crankshaft. Is the belt moving at all? Slack area moving from one side to the other?

If the timing belt doesn't get you anywhere, I would remove all the injectors or glow plugs and see if that makes a difference. If no results from that step, then you are probably looking at some serious engine work to deal with whatever has happened, unfortunately.

Let us know what you find.
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  #3  
Old 06-12-2020, 06:58 PM
smashed54 smashed54 is offline
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Hi. Thanks for your reply. Finally got back to the d24. I had taken the breather off last fall to be able to block intake in case of run-away. I would start it occasionally but I then let it sit for 2-3 months over winter. Hood closed but very maritime environment here in Nova Scotia. I removed the cam belt cover and checked for play in the belt, zero movement of the bottom end so probably seized pistons? If hydro locked there should be some movement? I feel good about my chances of saving this motor if seized pistons. I am close to a great shop, Alan Armstrong who is an great engine builder. Now I'll push the car in to the shop and get started on removal. I'll post back and let you all know what is going on. Thanks again, Paul
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Old 06-12-2020, 08:45 PM
ngoma ngoma is offline
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How did you try to crank it? 27mm socket wrench on the crankshaft bolt? Or did you try to crank it by the camshaft bolt? That can damage the timing belt, which leads to more, worse engine damages.

What did it sound like the last time it ran?

Were you already experiencing runaway problems before?

Beware: even "great engine builders" can get into trouble with these engines if they do not follow some of the (admittedly uncommon) crankshaft pulley tightening and timing procedures. Because these procedures are not common and require special tools, the otherwise "great engine builders" think they can substitute the common practices they are more familiar with that always produced satisfactory results in the past. Doesn't work for this one, unfortunately.

My Own Opinion: Highly doubtful that one winter season in a maritime environment could cause enough internal corrosion to seize the engine.
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Old 06-13-2020, 08:10 AM
smashed54 smashed54 is offline
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Hi. Thanks for the reply. I used 27 mm on crank to try turning. Last time running it was noisy, maybe injectors. Never "ran away" but I saw the vids and read about what a mess that makes so had a board ready when I started it. Ngoma, what do you think? busted cam or hydro lock should still allow SOME movement, wouldn't it? Well either way I'll push it into the shop and get started. I'll learn how to post pic's and show you what I find. I appricate the caution about "great" engine builders. If you google Alan Armstrong you'll probibally see what I mean. World class right here in little old NS. Take care and have fun... Paul that's Allyn Armstrong

Last edited by smashed54; 06-13-2020 at 08:54 AM. Reason: mispelling
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Old 06-13-2020, 12:19 PM
ngoma ngoma is offline
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You're asking for advice?

" ...busted cam or hydro lock should still allow SOME movement, wouldn't it?"

Reread v8volvo's post #2 above.

If you are still set on your broken cam theory, it seems easy enough to remove the valve cover and take a look-- should be able to see it quite easily.

If the pistons are rusted in place there are many legendary stories of spraying kroil or other rustbusting solutions in the CCs, letting it sit, than freeing them after a few days/weeks/months.

For hydrolock, again, how did the CCs fill with water?
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Old 06-14-2020, 03:27 AM
smashed54 smashed54 is offline
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Hi ngoma. Thanks for the reply.

I was asking for advise simply to drive the car into the shop.

I have no broken cam theory. Just my poorly stated question about hydro lock.

"how did you crank it?" "engine sound"

Read my post #1 above.

"Were you already experiencing runaway problems before?"

No and I didn't want to.

"My Own Opinion: Highly doubtful that one winter season in a maritime environment could cause enough internal corrosion to seize the engine."

So is this still Your Opinion?

Hood on, antifreeze still up. Why couldn't it be hydro locked with diesel?

In the future I'll be more carful with my enquiries and grammatically correct so as to forestall the confusion. I was just trying to save some work, not have to push the car into the shop. Thanks again... Paul
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Old 06-14-2020, 01:20 PM
ngoma ngoma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashed54 View Post
Hood on, antifreeze still up. Why couldn't it be hydro locked with diesel?
Could be but how? How would the combustion chambers get filled w/ diesel? Injectors need several thousand PSI to spray out just a droplet amount. Car sitting 3 months, IP not pumping, no pressure buildup, no way for much quantity to fill the CCs. I don't see any way, do you?



"My Own Opinion: Highly doubtful that one winter season in a maritime environment could cause enough internal corrosion to seize the engine."

Quote:
Originally Posted by smashed54 View Post
So is this still Your Opinion?
No, leaning away from that by process of elimination:
1. Crank will not budge not a bit either way. (does not indicate camshaft/valves).
2. Hydrolock unlikely (full coolant).

Was the area subject to prolonged salt fogs?
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  #9  
Old 07-01-2020, 05:24 PM
smashed54 smashed54 is offline
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hi Ngoma. I'll be pushing the car into the garage with the tractor and starting the work. Thanks for the concise information. I'll keep you all posted on my progress. Paul
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